(Zahri) Logging is now on guys. Do we want to get started?
(Twinblade) who imm
(Havoc) sure
(Twinblade) doh
(Hydros) Yes please
(Zahri) Conference will run around 60-90 minutes. Anything extra after that an be moved to the outland forums.
(Zahri) There are six sections to this conference: goals of this project and placement of areas are just statements. After that, we have types of areas, gear in areas, xp restrictions on areas, and restriction on time in areas. After each of those four sections, we can have a comments/questions period.
(Zahri) Most of my stuff is typed out already, so just wait for a 'comments? questions?' line. Mal will be helping with the queue.
(Twinblade) okie :p
(Merdin) Standard rules? Say nothing and queue for questions using $raise?
(DarkSong) leave
(GrizzleLumps) dont have that kind of attention to pay right now. heh have fun guys
(Zahri) Please type $help at any point. You can type $raise if you have a comment or question. (though it's easier if you wait until I ask for comments/questions)
(Zahri) use $exit to leave
(Zahri) First up with have the goals of this conference.
(Zahri) To help new players equip themselves (though not the main goal)
(Zahri) To help players get a bit of experience when there is not enough players for a run.
(Zahri) To help players get a bit of experience when they need to remort but don't like Lord groups.
(Zahri) To help players get a bit of experience when there is already a run out and not enough interest for a second.
(Zahri) Next, we have placement of areas.
(Zahri) Most if not all of the areas will be placed in or around Thorngate in some way. But it might be a portal that gets you elsewhere, or some other type of work. (to be determined)
(Zahri) Now, on to the meat of conference - questions/comments after I am done typing. types of areas
(Zahri) For the areas that were mentioned on the thread on outland.org, I was intrigued by the Thorngate bar fight idea and by the astral prison idea. The bar fight idea is on the one hand easier to do, but it would also require some use of progs to make it work properly. I could try and make it so that it scales in difficulty based on the player size (solo, duo, or trio).
(Zahri) The other idea - Lord mobs who are killed having their shades moved to an astral prison - would probably be linked to the astral plane in some way. A normal sized Lord group could go astral and open a connection to the prison from Thorngate each reboot. The prison will not be coming in in the first set of areas, however.
(Zahri) I am also considering small sub areas (25-30 rooms maximum) which each look at a separate historical theme in Avatar's past. The player would be thrown back into the past, but a shade of what once was (the mobs will not be as powerful). For example, an area that looks at the Ent-Giant war or an area that looks at Glasya at the height of his power.
(Zahri) It's possible that some of the historical areas will be open to only new Lords (level 1-50, etc). These areas would be the easiest in terms of difficulty to allow for new Lords to gain some experience on their own. I can't guarentee that all classes will be able to solo (clerics might find it a bit difficult for example), but there's still the opportunity to duo if needed.
(Zahri) Now - do we have any |C|questions or comments or ideas|N| on the TYPE of areas you want to see? (other discussion points to follow, so only type of areas please)
(Zahri) please use $raise
(Zahri) Tammo?
(Tammo) Assuming we wanted to go ahead with this, mechanics to allow for small groups already exist within the game all we have to do is tweak some things back to how they used to be. Remove wastesweepers from Outland (this is the reason they are there in the first place). Make Air shift easier to do so people can run Ctibor's merman vault more easily (this could easily be accomplished by limiting the room to walkin
(Tammo) room to walkins only rather than accepting drifters). Astral keep is already commonly run for small group exp. I believe other opportunities could be found to make small tweaks such as these rather than spend a significant amount of developers' time creating brand new areas time that I'm sure the majority of us would rather see spent on other things.
(Tammo) i had to cut an except out of what i had written already :p
(Zahri) Hmm. Point taken. Thanks (some things I didn't think of)
(Malaclypse) merdin calpe
(Tammo) buddy |BR|>> |R|excerpt
(Malaclypse) -e
(Tammo) hi
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) Assuming that we do go ahead with this, I feel it would be beneficial to target these at small groups (3 to 5 lets say). Lord is very much a group based tier
(Merdin) that being said, its only recently (relatively speaking)
(Merdin) that smaller groups were allowed/possible
(Merdin) I think that the purpose if it is to give new lords experience
(Zahri) always possible, but not allowed that long, no
(Merdin) at well being lord
(Malaclypse) calp voeg
(Calp) pass
(Calp) exit
(Zahri) Voeg?
(Voegelin) are these small historical areas, or others, intended to come and go like shard realms etc or be perm?
(Zahri) Nah, permanent
(Malaclypse) hydros
(Zahri) But I am also intrigued by Tammo's idea, too.
(Zahri) Hydros?
(Hydros) The way I see it, a lot of lord areas are doable by smaller groups...3-5, it's a matter of healage that becomes an issue...
(Zahri) Is that so? hm.
(Malaclypse) queue: fools merdin
(Hydros) New areas would have to hit almost nil to be worth it for soloer duoers
(Kilroy) EQ
(Tammo) that could fall under my idea also
(Zahri) I'll keep that in mind, but clerics already need help being grouped
(Hydros) true
(Zahri) so it's always a balance
(Hydros) Just a point i'm making
(Oci) quit
(Zahri) Fools?
(Oci) trying to leave
(Zahri) (and queue, Mal?)
(Zahri) type $exit
(Malaclypse) queue: fools merdin
(Zahri) Please try to have stuff typed out in advance when possible. Fools?
(Fools) Oh sorry
(Fools) Is there going to be gear in this mini areas?
(Zahri) that'll be covered a bit later
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) followup to Hydros, its very possible for people to do almost any area in 3-5 groups. That comes with gear, experience and skill. With a good healer, good tank, and a DPS or two you can clear most anything. However, if the purpose is new lord driven then the existing areas do not fulfill this objective as new lords lack said gear and experience.
(Merdin) and therefore cannot do this
(Zahri) nod, that's another point with just following Tammo's idea of revamping existing stuff
(Malaclypse) queue: voeg roam
(Tammo) new players should be running in groups, not soloing
(Merdin) I agree
(Zahri) unless I make a few areas which are open to only low levels, or etc
(Merdin) completely
(Zahri) but I also want to be nice to the players who really dislike lord and only want to remort
(Hydros) Like a lord mudschool wih mobs?
(Merdin) I would agree but its a group tier
(Merdin) anyways
(Zahri) nod, but less boring ;)
(Zahri) Voeg?
(Voegelin) i just wanted to remind ppl of one of your early points, one purpose is to help people who can't or don't want to do lord runs to get to remort level. that might need to be addressed separately than these small group areas
(Malaclypse) queue: voeg roam kil
(Zahri) nodnodnod
(Zahri) I would prefer to keep lord remort requirements (note: I am not a coder, etc)
(Tammo) maybe the remort requirement should be changed :p
(Zahri) Roam?
(Hydros) Then areas should be solo only
(Tammo) oh
(Malaclypse) queue: roam kilroy
(Roam) thank you the idea for clerics that are hard to solo, give them an area with undead weak to divine
(Zahri) hm, undead. Will keep that in mind >
(Zahri) thanks
(Voegelin) then shf could solo there too ;)
(Zahri) Kilroy?
(Kilroy) Will there be areas will smaller time reqs than current lord runs? I can't run lord because I'm watching kids and need to afk on a moment's notice.
(Zahri) that's what the areas I am proposing now would help with. quicker to get to, easier to leave suddenly, etc
(Zahri) so another point for them
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Malaclypse) queue: merdin
(Merdin) In reference to the point that these areas are to help those who wish to remort
(Merdin) and therefore do not like lord
(Merdin) Why not just change the requirement
(Merdin) I understand you prefer it
(Merdin) but the tier is based around the group dynamic and group play
(Merdin) this sounds like inserting heroesq
(Merdin) areas
(Zahri) because it should be something we attempt to work around in a thematic way, rather than just abandoning the idea right away without considering alternatives
(Malaclypse) queue: darksong hydros
(Zahri) Darksong? (closing queue for this part in 30 seconds)
(DarkSong) If we are talking of training areas for new lords, should angel ban be lifted for new lords?
(Malaclypse) queue: hydros kariya lyssa
(Zahri) no. unless Kerrinth really wants it. but doubtful.
(Zahri) Hydros?
(Hydros) In regards to Kilroy - about having to leave at a moment's notice. I lead a lot, if you inform a group leader ahead of time, most should be ok with your situation.
(Zahri) queue is now closed, after Calp
(Zahri) Kariya?
(Kariya) Merdin you called it hero-esq areas, and in a way I feel that will be it. A hybrid for new lords to get rolling, to not sit idle waiting for a huge group, to make themselves more useful for future lord groups.
(Malaclypse) queue: lyssa calp
(Kariya) Of course I might be wrong... ;)
(Zahri) nodnod ;)
(Zahri) Lyssa?
(Lyssa) Just a general comment that I hope whatever the new system, it doesn't baby lords. They are supposed to be role models, and be willing to put in time to learn and lead. So I hope they are changes targeted to helping those who can and will help themselves, but just can't get groups for whatever reason like time of day.
(Merdin) I would agree, im for helping new lords its those who want to avoid lord altogether (sorry for the interruption)
(Zahri) nodnod, understood
(Zahri) Calp? (and then we move on)
(Calp) teaching newlords is easy when there is runs to be had, the lack of runs isnt due to counts imo its due to increased amount of reboot gear, i think lord as whole would increase if we had a way to circumvent reboot runs, like after all reboot areas have been done, they reset and u can start all over again.
(Calp) lord is run all day after a reboot, and then dead for 2 weeks
(Zahri) hmm. nod, will consider. thank you very much
(Zahri) (note - can't do everything I want to do quickly, but you know)
(Tammo) make all gear reboot only :p
(Mimir) exp runs too
(Zahri) okay, next section is gear in areas. *wink*
(Zahri) Areas in this project will have Lordschool-type gear which helps a new Lord get equip themselves. It cannot possibly be a full set for everyone, of course, but it will be helpful.
(Zahri) The historical areas (if built) will definitely have ticket items. There's a chance that I might make it a bit more in depth - if given in a different order will produce different items. However, I haven't started work on that, so I might nix the 'giving multiple tickets for a random item' idea depending on difficulty.
(Zahri) There might also be xp bonuses above and beyond what the mob gives you (undecided so far so don't pin your hopes on it).
(Zahri) Okay. |C|Comments/questions |N|on gear specifically? use $raise
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) I dont know if this possible and im just typing so moment
(Zahri) nodnod no worries
(Malaclypse) queue: tammo
(Merdin) But is it possible to use a furnish type spell like legend.. But make defeating these mobs give an insignia
(Merdin) this insignia will determine what gear you get by furnishing
(Merdin) something to that effect?
(Zahri) Hmmm. ponderponder. not sure if it's possible off the bat, but I'll obviously think if I can do it.
(Zahri) well, the basics are of course ;) go to mob, get gear, get insignia blocking you
(Malaclypse) queue: tammo static fools
(Zahri) thanks
(Zahri) Tammo?
(Tammo) zahri i thought this conference was to determine if small group areas was an idea people were interested in. you sound as if this is something that is already going happen. is this the case? because if so i don't really need to be here.
(Zahri) the response on the outland.org thread was overlywhelming for them
(Zahri) but in the back of my mind thanks to you I am pondering outland wastesweepers and the other stuff you said ;)
(Zahri) maybe a more hybrid plan of attack.
(Tammo) okay
(Zahri)
(Zahri) Static?
(Static) For speed and ease to implement it seems like adding tickets to mobs for teir 3 gear would be easiest. Also having pieces you can buy on Thorn with gold might be useful as well.
(Zahri) nodnod
(Zahri) will look at Woe (I think it's Woe who has the blood-mithril gear) thanks
(Zahri) Fools?
(Malaclypse) queue: fools calp voeg
(Fools) For the furnish spell, make it work only in these new areas and no outside gear allowed, or make gear from mobs in these areas be perm not quite t1, no point going through all of this and having "new" lords with full t1 running in nuking it.
(Zahri) nah, it wouldn't be close to t1 at all
(Zahri) think lordschool level stats ;)
(Fools) I mean, I can morph something put gear on it and pretend I'm new
(Zahri) nod? and? (not following)
(Zahri) oh, you mean not using t1 gear in the new areas?
(Zahri) will consider if I have anything I can do to prevent that, but I don't think so
(Fools) Yeah, and not being able to solo them with a full set on a caster
(Zahri) well, beyond reducing the xp enough that it'll never be as good as shifting out
(Malaclypse) queue: calp voeg merdin darksong havoc
(Zahri) the 'good' players will probably prefer to shift out btw.
(Zahri) if they have the time
(Zahri) Calp?
(Calp) there has been a huge increase in second third hp gear in the game, i have 12 lords and 8 of them are geared up with that other stuff in just a few days, the gear isnt the issue its readily avail, just yesterday we had a newlord gear up from the help of others and stuff sold to the shops, the issue is the lack of runs to get the gear, or the lack of players
(Zahri) nod, will keep that in mind
(Malaclypse) queue: voeg merdin darksong havoc
(Voegelin) would it be possible for a new lord (lvl 1 only? maybe in mud school?) to do a quest that will force them to remort at a certain level? so only with that insignia they will be allowed to solo a special area. idea is for those who just need to remort and leave lord.
(Zahri) Voeg?
(Voegelin) agree with calp btw
(Zahri) hm. possible with code assistance, but seems a bit heavy handed for the moment
(Malaclypse) queue: merdin darksong havoc kariya
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) I agree with Fools point.. temp furnish gear ONLY in the area (If its possible), rewards for defeating the area would be XP and and perm t2 or t3 based on what you defeat. I think that might accomplish quite a bit if the purpose is to equip and teach new lords. The "only" bit is the tricky bit for you coders!
(Merdin) That I havent the foggest if its possible
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) I'll need to ponder, really. sorry I can't get an answer right away, but we'll see
(Zahri) DarkSong?
(DarkSong) If id like to solo beacuse i only have 15 min, Id really not like to have multiple sets only because my good ac set is verbotten in solo areas. It makes no sense.
(Zahri) nod, understandable
(Malaclypse) queue: havoc kariya calp
(Zahri) I can't really force players to not have a set of gear anyway, so. :P
(Zahri) code wise atm
(Zahri) Havoc?
(Havoc) the point of this is basically to be able to group more period right? why are we focused on just lord newbies? theres been plenty of times where leaders have called for groups and felt "they didnt get enough players" and there was no run..
(Zahri) it's only focused on newbies because that is the way the conversation has gone, but the changes themselves won't just focus on new players
(Malaclypse) queue: kariya calp
(Kariya) Regarding 2/3rd tier gear.
(Zahri) (queue closing in one minute or so, so use $raise if you need to now, regarding gear)
(Kariya) If there's lots in areas but not that easy to get, perhaps the 'solo' areas can have tickets to get them.
(Zahri) nod. though I think a look at what tier 2/3 gear there is might reveal some holes, though
(Kariya) and if ppl want the better stuff they'll still group (eventually)
(Zahri) nod
(Merdin) I like that Kariya. (sorry to interrupt again)
(Zahri) Calp?
(Calp) new lords need to be taught how to lead and manage a group, i dont feel that new solo areas and mudschool is gonna teach them anything, increasing the availablity of bigger runs or getting rid of reboot only gear would be a bonus to the whole tier
(Malaclypse) queue: calp mimir
(Zahri) I'll consider reboot gear. we'll see how that helps
(Malaclypse) queue: mimir merdin
(Static) %raise
(Zahri) Mimir?
(Voegelin) more small runs would also help ppl learn to lead
(Mimir) I'm a little wary on the idea of automatically handing out t3 gear to newbies. I think when the community helps gear a new player, it creates warm fuzzies all around.
(Mimir) would be a shame to take that away.
(Zahri) true, true
(Zahri) will keep that in mind
(Zahri) thanks
(Voegelin) gear is least important aspect of this i think
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) Is the purpose to teach them to function in a group ? or to lead? If its to lead nothing but their own initiative will do that Calp. If its to function in a group then smaller areas would help. Also to Mimir, I dont think T3 would take that away.. Its nice to get t2 or t1 as a newbie
(Malaclypse) queue: merdin stein static
(Merdin) I know I felt the warm fuzzies back in 04 :P
(Zahri) the biggest purpose right now is get xp when you otherwise can't
(Merdin) right okay
(Zahri) new player or not. so you're not bored waiting
(Merdin) nod
(Zahri) gear is just a sub thing to ponder
(Zahri) Stein>
(Stein) Just a comment from a new Lord: From my experiences, there is plenty of generosity among the lord community and I was able to build a set of useable gear within several days of becoming Lord. Also, I have always been allowed to join any lord run and even participate in lottos. I would just propose changing the lotto system in a way that benefits both experienced and new lords by making it need-based. For
(Zahri) (last chance to enter queue)
(Malaclypse) queue: static calp
(Stein) For instance, you could tie it to the tier-based system where new lords would be allowed to roll for entry-level gear, and experienced lords would be allowed to roll for high-tier items. Just a thought.
(Zahri) Hmmm. Lotto is a sticky one, since it's always been up to the group leader and their preferences.
(Zahri) I unfortunately think that is out of my expertise
(Dharm) Nod, technically most high lords don't "NEED" anything.
(Mimir) lots of leaders do hand out "junk" gear obtained on a run to n00bs.
(Merdin) I know I dont Dharm
(Zahri) Static?
(Static) Removing the restrictions on reboot gear is just going to flood the game with those pieces, creating a rush when it first happens and then a huge lul after most of the more skilled leaders have gotten what they want. Of course a few people would still lead, but if you look how often things like crown and Zgaunts are run, with the difficulty of reboot gear being similar I could see it slowing the amount of tim
(Zahri) |R|queue is now closed for this topic
(Malaclypse) queue: calp
(Calp) could always get rid of shadow and allows lords and heroes 1 alt on each tier at the same time, thus increasing the availablity to run both tiers at same time. and i didnt ask to get rid of reboot, just allow a loop, after all reboot gear is done, u can start all over again or do a quest to create a 'reboot'
(Zahri) nod. that is always something to consider, of course.
(Static) cont. Slowing player activity because there is not as much drive, especially after all gear is obtained. keeping things rare fixes this
(Zahri) nod, thanks Static
(Zahri) Calp, anything else before I move to the next point?
(Calp) could always get rid of shadow and allows lords and heroes 1 alt on each tier at the same time, thus increasing the availablity to run both tiers at same time. and i didnt ask to get rid of reboot, just allow a loop, after all reboot gear is done, u can start all over again or do a quest to create a 'reboot'
(Calp) woops all i got there
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) Might be interesting. but I'll be honest and say it won't be high on my priority list with the other things that need to be worked on now
(Zahri) but keep poking me later this year ;)
(Fools) 2014 is mine.
(Roam) poke Zahri, as requested
(Calp) (Zahri) nod
(Zahri) Okay, I have two more points to go through. xp restrictions and time restrictions.
(Merdin) a few years back but point taken.
(Zahri) xp reduction first..
(Zahri) The areas will have some sort of artificial xp reduction in an attempt to keep normal experience runs better. I will drastically drop the experience for groups higher than the area's intent (i.e. if an area is for 1-3, then the xp for a group of 4 will be pretty minimal).
(Zahri) I am pondering reducing the xp reduction for duos or trios respectively so that duos and trios get a better xp rate than soloers, to help keep the spirit of 'grouping' alive even in these smaller areas.
(Zahri) do you have any |C|comments/ideas/questions|N| about xp reduction? please use $raise
(Zahri) Dharm?
(Dharm) Would it be possible to have the exp in the area go to zero when a run shifts to another plane?
(Dharm) or go nofight
(Zahri) no - and that's not the point - we want areas to be run when they can't catch the run that's already out
(Zahri) erm... I mean, players need a way to get xp if they 'just miss' a run and have to wait 70 more ticks.
(Zahri) plus regen time. It's a long while.
(Zahri) Calp?
(Calp) allowing increasing solo and duo runs on regular planes would take away from groups not?
(Calp) insert xp in there somewhere
(Zahri) I am not going to be changing the xp on regular planes at all
(Calp) fantastic then sorry
(Zahri) no worries, different wavelengths!
(Malaclypse) queue: lyssa merdin mimir
(Zahri) Lyssa?
(Lyssa) Missing a run by 30 minutes is a different issue than not being able to group cuz of time of day no one being on. A tierwide change to accommodate someone who logged on 10 minutes late should be lower priority. I hope changes will have as less negative effect on regular runs as possible, which includes discouraging solo/duo when people are trying to get a real run going. Hence I favor Dharm's idea of signific
(Lyssa) Dharm's idea of significant xp penalty when a run of X players on another plane shows that a group was possible at that time.
(Zahri) atm it's not possible code wise
(Malaclypse) queue: merdin mimir
(Lyssa) Just something that discourages avoiding the regular runs
(Zahri) but also, it's kind of hard to be so arbitrary - I think the onus falls on me to make sure the solo-trio areas are not awesome places to hide all day, somehow
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) If the purpose is to make it easier for people to get XP (especially when there are no runs) as you said earlier Zahri. I think reducing xp for solos versus duos wouldnt really accomplish that. Most people alt or go afk when they find out they missed a run. I dont really see a reason to reduce it unless you go over lets say 3 or 4. Maybe a "bonus" for a trio or something like that. (tie it into group diversit
(Malaclypse) queue: merdin mimir havoc fools
(Merdin) (tie it into group diversity maybe on a technical point?)
(Merdin) sorry too long
(Merdin) THis is for the new areas
(Merdin) of course
(Zahri) I want these areas to be less beneficial than shifting and fighting the same mob in the outer planes
(Merdin) right of course but I meant a duo versus a solo
(Merdin) in that area
(Zahri) there's going to be less difficulty to be had in these areas, so the xp should reflect that
(Zahri) nod. it's just a way to encourage grouping even in them
(Mimir) good motivation to bring someone along. not a bad thing imo.
(Zahri) it could be that soloing is still the 'best', but the xp drop for grouping someone is much less
(Merdin) true so perhaps a bonus?
(Malaclypse) queue: havoc fools dharm neyne
(Zahri) maybe, but bonus brings it closer to 'normal' runs which I want to avoid ;)
(Zahri) thanks
(Zahri) Havoc?
(Merdin) yeah its a sweet spot game
(Havoc) my question is if we do this are we going to see little "clicks" running around and it take away from actual lord groups.. we already see enough "private" runs now..
(Zahri) that's why I am treading carefully and calling this conference Havoc. It's not going to be easy to balance right
(Zahri) and might mean for some tweaking after it goes in
(Zahri) but right now, it seems the majority do want to try this - even with some possible tweaking after
(Zahri) Fools?
(Fools) Even if there is a run going out, one of the points is that if you can't commit to a whole run, to be able to get xp without having to afk for half or most of the run just so you can make the shift.
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) that's also true
(Zahri) it's not just 72 ticks. it's regen+spellup+72 ticks.
(Zahri) which as we all know can be a while...
(Fools) Sure, you could chose to afk half the run, it's nice to have options.
(Zahri) Dharm?
(Dharm) I'd rather you come for 10 minutes and leave than solo in a different area
(Dharm) sorry
(Dharm) I am still on the point of preventing people from doing these new areas in lieu of a real run. Would it be possible to have the solo/duoer earn an insignia when they have completed the area? This insignia could give +5% exp as a bonus for finishing, then prevent re-running the area for X amount of time. (Im thinking like the eragora insignia bonus)
(Zahri) that'll be covered in the next section
(Zahri) (final section)
(Neyne) scratch me from queue
(Zahri) Mimir (I think)?
(Malaclypse) queue: mimir static
(Mimir) (multi-part comment, bear with me)
(Mimir) I like the idea of making it possible to get exp when there aren't many (any?) other lords willing to group with you. But like others, I think that it would be a shame if, as a side-effect of this proposed change, "traditional" lord runs will became less frequent, or less populated.
(Mimir) if someone's in the "lord solo" area, and they see a call for a normal group (even just outland exp) i
(Mimir) t should be a no-brainer for them to join up with the bigger group (assuming they have the time to tag along for part of the run).
(Zahri) nod
(Mimir) for exp, you can't just consider how much each mob gives, you also have to factor in downtime
(Mimir) of getting a group assembled, spelled, shifted, etc.
(Mimir) but exp shouldn't be the only consideration in making the "lord solo" areas "worse. You also need to
(Mimir) consider the risk of death, CR, etc.
(Zahri) nod, true
(Mimir) all stuff you've probably already thought of I'm sure, but worth pointing out again.
(Mimir) (fin)
(Merdin) Lower risk lower reward. Agreed
(Zahri) all corpses sent to morgue for a day, straight away! (this is a joke)
(Malaclypse) queue: static roam
(Zahri) Static?
(Static) If thexp is done correctly people are not going to want to be soloing or duoing vs running in a group if they can help it. As long as trios dont become too effecient I think most skilled players would prefer to lead when able, and solo when its not.
(Dharm) oo, I like that, the only way to get corpse back is morgue!
(Zahri) queue closes in 1 minute, btw
(Dharm) oo, I like that, the only way to get corpse back is morgue!
(Zahri) nodnod
(Zahri) thanks
(Zahri) Roam?
(Roam) rhetorial question, how is there risk when there is morgue, thren and eulogy?
(Zahri) (final chance - use $raise to join queue if you want)
(Zahri) it's still possible to lose gear, but I get ya
(Zahri) Stein?
(Stein) Just wanted to add on to the reboot gear idea: Is it possible to change certain reboot items to just a low drop rate, say 10%? That would lower the incentive for running strictly reboot runs.
(Zahri) hm. it's possible to make it like astral dragon repop, takes a while to come back
(Roam) pardon the comment to add to Z's statement manditory stat loss is risk
(Zahri) but not quite that, I think. well, progs might be able to do it
(Malaclypse) you could do a 2 step approach via mprogs
(Lyssa) like aura of elemental power i think he means
(Malaclypse) quit easily
(Zahri) ah, nod
(Malaclypse) mob drops item, turn in has 10% of success
(Stein) nod
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) it seems kind of mean to have lords go all the way there for less than 100% success
(Zahri) lord runs do take a while for the good gear :P
(Demontongue) agreed
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) Few general comments.. There is risk, there always will be risk. Its been reduced dramatically true. I think if its to provide an option then the balance will be key. And it wont be and cant be perfect the first time. Whenever you launch something your clients (or in my case students) interpret and use it in.. creative ways.
(Zahri) |R|queue for this is now closed. one more section after
(Zahri) heh, nod, that is true
(Merdin) I think as long as it accomplishs the objectives then its good enough the details will be worked out in revisions
(Merdin) because you cant anticipate how that will go even with testing
(Zahri) nod. like I said. I have a feeling we're going to tweak after it goes live
(Zahri) :P
(Zahri) okay, last section is restriction on time spent in area (if any) - questions/comments afterwards. let me copy/paste.
(Dharm) edfcvgbh/
(Zahri) in terms of restrictions in how long you can be there...
(Dharm) Sorry, say hi to Ryan, he's 3months old.
(Zahri) The bar fight section, if it occurs, might be limited to once per day, or once per two days (group insignia).
(Zahri) heh
(Zahri) For the historical areas, there's a few different ways to make sure that players don't spend their entire time in them (which are more of an open area with free killing). All of them require invisible insignias. You could limit it by...
(Zahri) a. time logged in (90-120 minutes per day, for example)
(Zahri) b. sublevel - more time given to newer Lords
(Zahri) c. number of kills - this would likely start off as more akin to Fungal Forest, where the mobs remember you, and become more and more aggressive the more you kill them. Eventually you would be kicked out completely like in a). This helps scale up the difficulty a bit which helps newer players think more quickly on their feet. The mobs would forget you after x days. This might show up in the duo-trio type area
(Zahri) Okay. are there any |C|questions/comments/ideas|N| for the time restriction part of the areas? (use $raise)
(Zahri) Voeg?
(Kariya) time
(Voegelin) in a group how would it work if individuals had diff amounts of time spent or left?
(Kariya) sorry, had to say that *wink imms*
(Malaclypse) grin
(Zahri) in theory I think I would plan to remove that individual and only that one
(Zahri) but havent worked out the kinks yet
(Voegelin) say 3 pppl in group, one has 30 min already in area, one 15, one 5
(Voegelin) and area is limited to 60
(Voegelin) one person would have to leave before the others
(Zahri) well, after 5, they walk into a room and the mob sees that they shouldnt be there and moves them (or the room sees)
(Malaclypse) queue merdin static dharm
(Zahri) nod. that's the issue with that way.
(Zahri) but otherwise the player keeps joining with different groups and gets to stay all day ;)
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) I would avoid time logged in. I idle like crazy, I know many people do. I Like options b and c though. Also Voeg does have a point the limit could get messy in the details.. if your tank disappears in the duo you die or run.
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) Static?
(Static) I really like the fungal forest idea, increasing the dificulty rather then a timer. You could make the mobs more prone to agroing/hunting the layer as well. As to the timer insig, I think you should be able to run 2 hours solo time per day. It would be enough to allow people playing on off hours to level when they are able. Especially if you are allowed to regen and have it not tic down time.
(Static) player*
(Zahri) I think it would have to tick down time, because otherwise the only other tool I have is having it disappear at midnight sys
(Voegelin) if we have so many groups that ppl can run there all day we've solved our not enough groups problem
(Static) You could in theory abuse the regen, but it would be inefficient
(Zahri) nod
(Voegelin) also the lesser xp thing discussed earlier to encourage ppl to join reg groups should solve this
(Malaclypse) queue dharm lyssa
(Zahri) perhaps the mob could give a warning (thematic) a bit before the player needs to be kicked out
(Dharm) I am still on the point of preventing people from doing these new areas in lieu of a real run. Would it be possible to have the solo/duoer earn an insignia when they have completed the area? This insignia could give +5% exp as a bonus for finishing, then prevent re-running the area for X amount of time. (Im thinking like the eragora insignia bonus) Additionally, I think it would be beneficial to put the a
(Mimir) deja vu
(Dharm) areas in Eragora
(Zahri) nod, well, it's not that much different from what's already proposed, as they will be prevented from re-running an area for a bit after their timer runs out
(DarkSong) risec
(Zahri) grin, but no to areas in Eragora
(Zahri) Lyssa?
(Lyssa) I like all 3 of Zahri's limit ideas. You could let someone enter and stay as long as their timer had not run out - if fungal forest style limits their time in there, so what if they sneak one extra run in. Overall you still get to impose global time limits to encourage larger group runs.
(Lyssa) as long as their timer hadn't run out at the time thye entered i mean
(Zahri) nod. I think I haven't quite figured out the magic formula yet, but I'll keep pondering
(Lyssa) without yanking someone's healer midrun
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) Havoc?
(Zahri) (and what's the queue?)
(Havoc) why should a duo/trio group be so special to get an insignia? then we should have insignias at lord period.. regardless of area/group
(Malaclypse) queue darksong voegelin
(Zahri) not planning on giving an xp insig atm
(Zahri) so no worries
(Zahri) DarkSong?
(DarkSong) Any hard limit on time is bad as many of us need to afk for longer stretches. the fungal approach is the only true measurement of how much a player has actually ran the area.
(Havoc) nod
(Zahri) nod, but I have to plan for the players who overrun it, versus the players who go afk
(DarkSong) There is no finer counter than mob kills
(Zahri) it's just the nature of the beast unfortunately
(Zahri) but I still need to yank people even in the fungal forest method, eventually. because otherwise the elite players will never have to go even if all the mobs aggie ;)
(Zahri) Voeg?
(Voegelin) i don't think any limits are necessary if as discussed earlier xp is low and balanced correct. ppl will prefer and choose a regular run if it's available if we balance small area xp right. time limits and such as discussed only make it needlessly more complicated in my opinion
(Zahri) nod, that is an issue yes. my head does hurt a little thinking about it! ;)
(Zahri) Merdin?
(Merdin) In response to Voeg thats exactly right. If I want to do a duo/trio I can just group up with a few sors and go to water or out and get better xp
(Merdin) there wont be a driver for the better players
(Merdin) to go there
(Zahri) |C|We are now moving to a 'free for all' questions/comments/period for 10 minutes maximum. in 10 minutes the conference ends
(Ezeey) note read
(Zahri) nod Merdin. Yes, Static?
(Zahri) er, still use $raise
(Zahri) but not limited in topics ;)
(Static) Oh it waas about getting small groupse for water
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) Neyne?
(Neyne) eep, typing
(Zahri) no worries
(Zahri) |C|Please use $raise if you have a question/comment. Any topic related to this conference.
(Static) Ive had issues getting lord groups. during the days with the counts we've been having, being able to solo for less xp, but with out the hassle seems nice.
(Zahri) nod
(Zahri) a bit more of a relaxing experience, but in a limited manner so you still want to try the harder runs ;)
(Zahri) Stein?
(Agac) l
(Lyssa) I'm leaving so I'm going to jump the queue and say thanks for all the hard work, Zahri
(Stein) I would oppose daily timers because you might find players only logging in to do the daily exp runs and then logging out. It is hard enough finding enough people to run normal runs, so I would oppose incentivizing activity that makes normal runs even more difficult to start. Instead, I would propose a system that diminishes exp based on the active number of running lords on at the time, say if only one trio
(Zahri) bow Lyssa
(Neyne) okay typed
(Stein) is running, it would get 100% exp, but if a trio and a group of 10 is running (or let's say, 5 trios), there would be a significant exp-reduction for each trio running. Also, if there was a global command that could allow people to see how many active lords are running, it would help, so when they are on their alts, they could see lord activity and try to join up.
(Zahri) nod. the problem is the code doesn't currently allow the first bit of what you said at all
(Zahri) the xp reduction stuff I have right now is area based
(Voegelin) if small group area xp is very very low ppl will always prefer reg runs
(Ezeey) nog
(Stein) But, I think the exp should not be reduced if there are not enough people on for a normal run.
(Zahri) Do you guys want me to ponder trying to make some regular lord runs a bit easier? like Tammo suggested removing wastesweepers again.
(Voegelin) could be good
(Merdin) I wouldnt be opposed to making shift easier
(Static) I would like that
(Mimir) would be less work for us if it solves the problem
(Merdin) other than that no
(Neyne) or re-add the shift infirmary? *duck*
(Havoc) stein, there is a lordrun command.
(Zahri) haha no shift infirmary. :P
(Merdin) Its really shift thats the challenge for a small group
(Merdin) once you are there you are good
(Twinblade) Stein, there is a command to see active lords running.
(Zahri) there's also the theory that I could make some hard lord runs which require 20+ a bit easier
(Voegelin) i think smaller runs would be nice for ppl to learn to lead as it can be intimidating to do your first runs and a ton of people join wanting to do something complicated
(Stein) ok thanks
(Zahri) my first and only run leading was to Karnath back when it was a monster. :P
(Twinblade) type lordrun
(Static) I dont see the point of making this area if you lower the xp to the levels voeglin is talking. No one would even waste their time with it, its a lot of work for not much payout
(Zahri) (I think 'lordrun' works for hero alts too)
(Merdin) does it?
(Merdin) neat
(Twinblade) nod zahri
(Havoc) yes
(Static) Id like to see some of the karn stuff made easier personally
(Voegelin) it's something to do, and much easier than normal run that's the point
(Zahri) which sections? or the shackle bit?
(Havoc) thanks Zahri
(Twinblade) I personally wouldn't want my runs to be timed.. *shrug*
(Zahri) Feel free (anyone) if you have any ideas for making lord a bit easier for true groups to email me at Zahri@outland.org. can't say I'll get to it quickly, though, but it'll be there.
(Zahri) I do prefer email over board 2, if possible
(Merdin) If shift was easier I think that might solve a lot of issues. I mean it wont help newbies but it would help solos/duos/small groups
(Static) All the hit gear piees are tricky, the no spell bit on the shackle run in tart almost wiped 16 people
(Zahri) nospell bit, nod
(Zahri) Neyne?
(Neyne) To prevent soloers/duoers from getting caught up in one of the mini areas when a real run is being assembled, could some sort of abuse-proof feature get added that abluts and transfers the group out of the area?
(Neyne) Maybe it would require a quest to activate so players actually have to run the area for X ticks before the get their easy ticket out.
(Zahri) it's still a bit too heavy handed. it's assuming that the players want to do that run or have the time
(DarkSong) Dboo
(Neyne) it's not a force quit, just a quick escape option
(DarkSong) sigh typo
(Static) Also the solo/duo areas should show up on lordrun
(Zahri) oh, I see
(Voegelin) they can always home and ablut themselves
(Static) even if they are based on thorn
(Ezeey) exit conference
(Zahri) I'll probably be able to make it a separate place, not labeled as thorngate
(Zahri) use $exit
(Ezeey) thanks.
(Zahri) Any other comments or questions? Need to wrap this up.
(Merdin) However, The easist way is the most abuse prone way... If you make general shifts etc easier whats to stop it from becoming tons of 4 to 5 people groups or less? Cliques exist thats reality.
(Voegelin) thanks for the conference Z, and everyone
(Azagthoth) l
(Zahri) Please note the log won't be sent on tonight. Hopefully tomorrow, as I'd prefer to dissect it first.
(Azagthoth) oops
(Zahri) nod Merdin, that's always an issue of course
(Voegelin) very low xp gains
(Voegelin) prevents abuse
(Merdin) general areas voeg
(Merdin) we moved past sepcific one
(Zahri) I'd prefer to make lord a bit tighter at the higher group size areas - need 15 instead of 20, etc.
(Merdin) specific*
(Voegelin) ah i agree, should not be too easy in existing areas
(Static) Thanks for running this Zahri, im really stoked to see the imms actively making changes/ listening to player needs. Also god job running this conference
(Stein) Voegelin, the point is that some players play at hours when there are not enough lords to get a normal run going. That is one of the points of this discussion.
(Merdin) Well long gone are the days that 30 of us get eaten at crown..
(Zahri) keep in mind I can only do so much so fast. ;)
(Zahri) grin merdin
(Voegelin) some xp is better than none
(Twinblade) What if you want to lead for ~ amount of time with a solo/duo/trio group and cant because of time restrictions? I just don't think it is fair..
(Zahri) I still have to write stuff, etc. it's a few months off at the least
(Twinblade) err X amount*
(Stein) I agree, but it should not be such a harsh penalty that discourages people from even wanting to play lord.
(Static) Nogs fixing some of the tuffer runs might be a good idea, the difficulty was designed for back when having 30 lords on was normal
(Zahri) nod static
(Merdin) I think the consensus here is there is no easy answer...
(Zahri) there really isn't!
(Merdin) and both are big time investments..
(Agac) ?
(Merdin) either in abuse prevention
(Twinblade) nod merdin
(Merdin) or content generation
(Zahri) but I do want to be nice to the offpeakers, so something must be done. :p
(Twinblade) :p
(Voegelin) ;)
(Static) I was reading some who logs from 5-6 years ago, player activity has changed but difficulty hasn't really
(Zahri) and not just because I just moved to europe, I swear ;) ;) ;)
(Malaclypse) snicker
(Zahri) okay dokey guys, I'm going to close this in a min.
(Twinblade) *giggle*
(Agac) raise
(Zahri) Feel free to reply to the thread on the lord forum at outland.org if you have anything
(Twinblade) thanks again!
(Static) Take care everyone
(Stein) *wave*
(Zahri) or email me
(Twinblade) *hugs all*
(Malaclypse) toodles
(DarkSong) thanx zahri
(Twinblade) *lick mala*
(Zahri) wavebye